2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Ok. Today I setup the wiring for the relays that will control the automatic water change pump and the solenoid for my RO. All I have left now is to get the ReefAngel programmed and connect the 5V outputs to the trigger input on the relays. Then the main part of the electronics will be done. I do still have to get the control signal from upstairs connected and the float switch wired up for the ReefAngel's inputs, but that's just splicing wires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvHLUKTDDv0
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Ok i screwed up the relays when i tried to hook up the reef angel dimming ports. Now the red light is stuck on like the trigger is active but the relay is open and the trigger no longer responds. I'm not sure whats going on. I ordered 4 more relays...will try again in a month when they arrive. :(
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

I had a similar issue with my 12v relay and it turned out that the power supply was not putting out enough voltage.

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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Whats weird is that when it was hooked up both relays were coming on at the same time. Something with my wiring may be flawed I don't know. Will see what happens next time. I will try and document the circuit better and get some input.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

Yeah. Let me see the circuit and maybe another set of eyes will help.

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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Here's the circuit. Lmk what you think. You can watch the video to see the actual wiring job. Hopefully this makes sense.

Image
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

So just to clarify the IN is connected to dimming ports which are set to analog / 0-5V ports. I am setting the ports to 100% for what should be the 5V trigger.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

Lee;

I can see the sketch on my phone thru Tapatalk, but I can't see it here and it is too small on my phone.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

It looks good to me.

The two 5v things at the top are the RA dimming ports?
Obviously it worked with the 24V triggering the relays, did it ever work with the 5V RA Signal triggering it?
I can't remember are you using the dimming channel to trigger the relay or the ATO ports?

The reason I'm asking is since the dimming channels are sending out 0-5v are you sure the relay is getting the full 5v or if it is less it may not be enough to trigger the relay.

Also (Stupid question, but need to ask) you said the relay has a high and low trigger, are you sure that you switched it over to use the low trigger.

Finally, what happens if there is no load connected, it shouldn't make a difference, but you never know.
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Yes, I"m using dimming ports for this. I did not confirm that they are sending out the full 5V. I will be doing a bit more testing next time around. I can set them back to 0-10V and then adjust the output to get to the full 5V if thats an issue.
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Yes, I'm positive I moved the jumpers to the low trigger side.

Right now the relay does nothing... just sits there with the lights on. No clicking anymore.. even tried with everything else removed and just plain power. Same with switching back to the high level trigger.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

Yeah, let's see if your getting a full 5V out of the dimming port.
Maybe even try a 5V walwart to make sure the relays will trigger at 5v.
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Yeah, that will be the approach moving forward as well. I need to adjust the test code I'm using on the RA so I can measure it easily enough. My main concern was that I was sharing the negative with the 24V PS and was afraid somehow 24V was going back into the RA. But if I don't connect it to that negative, then where else? Unless I don't need it for the trigger... I wish I knew more electronics...
rimai
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by rimai »

I can't see the picture :(
Roberto.
rimai
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by rimai »

I was able to see the picture from the link it was sent to my email though:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/10/bu4ybe7u.jpg
Anyhow, what's DC+?
I think you fried the optical isolator in the relay board if it has one. You can't use the +24 in the right side. The +24 is only supposed to be connected to the left side and should not be connected to RA. That's what I think in my mind, but I would need to see how that relay board works. Do you have schematics?
Roberto.
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Yes, that's correct. I don't have schematics, I only have the description from the ebay link which I sent you a while back.

The IN on the relay is either a "High Level" or "Low Level" trigger input. You can see in the video it working fine when set to High and connecting a 24V lead to the relay. But when I switched it to low and connected the dimming wires, nothing was behaving as expected. I was trying to measure things with the multimeter I think when it got fried.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

lnevo wrote: I was trying to measure things with the multimeter I think when it got fried.
Very possible. That's very easy to do if you're no careful with the probes.
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by rimai »

Ahhh, I just revisited the ebay link and I think your connections are good :)
You need to set the trigger to high.
Roberto.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

Why does he need to set the trigger to high it he is using 5v from the RA dimming module to trigger it?
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

rimai wrote:Ahhh, I just revisited the ebay link and I think your connections are good :)
You need to set the trigger to high.
That's one thing the description isn't very clear on as far as which voltage to use for the High/Low triggers...

So to repeat what Sacohen said.. why high?
rimai
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by rimai »

The trigger is whether you want the relay to activate when RA sends high (5V) signal or low (0V) signal.
If you set to low, the relay will activate when RA sends 0% or when RA is offline. That's the best scenario when you want something to be on when RA looses power.
If you set to high, the relay will activate when RA sends 100% (assuming you set the jumpers to 5V analog) and will not activate when RA looses power. So, the relay can only be activated when RA is operational and sending 100% signal.
That's what I picked up of what the trigger is.
Roberto.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

But if it is a 24V relay will a 5v signal from the RA even trigger it?

The E-Bay description is very unclear what the high and low triggers do?
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

That's interesting and actually may match up to what I saw when initially testing....

I had the Low trigger option configured and initially when I wired everything up the relays were ON not OFF. Thats why I started screwing around with the wiring, etc. So I probably had good behavior and messed it up trying to unconfirm that behavior.

The Low option is almost what I'm looking to do with the signal from upstairs though so that's cool to know that other applications have similar requirement :)
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Sacohen wrote:But if it is a 24V relay will a 5v signal from the RA even trigger it?

The E-Bay description is very unclear what the high and low triggers do?
The relays are made to work with Arduino.. here's the ebay link http://bit.ly/1pFisuu

I have a feeling that the voltage on that signal doesn't really matter except that it's good. The test code on the controller was slow so I may not have waited it out long enough thinking something was wrong with my wiring to see the ports come on / off.

I also wasn't sure I had the pinout properly on the RA so I was debugging that at the same time... at least I got an extra set of relays this time. I'll go one at a time and make sure I don't fry them all in one shot...
rimai
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by rimai »

The signal IN is not directly connected to the relay coil. It goes through an opto-isolator, which in turn controls a transistor, which in turn activates the coil, which is 24VDC.
The purpose of the opto-isolator is to isolate the RA port from being damaged by anything that is going on with the relay coil stuff, which is running at 24VDC.
The opto-isolator does not have enough power to activate the coil in the relay, so a transistor is need that can handle the 24V and 5mA current.
Roberto.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

Thanks for clarifying that. I had never heard of an Optocoupler before and wasn't sure what they did.
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by rimai »

Check the beginning of the thread for the schematics of an optocoupler:
http://forum.reefangel.com/viewtopic.php?p=36132#p36132
It works basically the same as your tv remote control. On one side you have a infrared led (your remote control) and on the other side, you have a photo-sensitive transistor (your tv).
When the led is turned on by the RA signal, it emits light that the transistor picks up so you have this layer of protection where one side is isolated from the other side by a small gap of air.
This small gap of air protects one side from another since they don't have any physical contact and the signal is transmitted by means of light through this led-transistor combo.
Roberto.
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Sacohen
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by Sacohen »

Very cool. You learn something new everyday. :)

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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

So I guess on the issue of high or low trigger, I couldn't find much documented.. I did find the specifications for one relay that said the low trigger was anything less than 7V and high was >7V.

I also found this link http://www1.electusdistribution.com.au/ ... tocoup.pdf

[quote]For example just like a discrete LED, you can drive an
optocoupler’s input LED from a transistor or logic
gate/buffer. All that’s needed is a series resistor to set the
current level when the LED is turned on. And regardless of
whether you use a transistor or logic buffer to drive the
LED, you still have the option of driving it in ‘pull down’ or
‘pull up’ mode — see Fig.2. This means you can arrange for
the LED, and hence the optocoupler, to be either ‘on’ or
‘off ’ for a logic high (or low) in the driving circuitry./quote]

And based on the behavior I saw (both relays going to ON when set to Low trigger) I'm pretty inclined to think that it was all working as expected and I screwed up it up trying to troubleshoot a working situation. Only one way to know once the new relays come in. I can't seem to find anyone in the US that sells these.. I found a few more links on Amazon, etc. but they all have crazy stupid shipping times. If anyone knows where I can source something like this locally, please lmk. In the meantime, I'm glad I have some confirmation that I was going in the right direction.
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lnevo
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Re: 2 RAs in tandem + H2O Automation

Post by lnevo »

Got the replacement relays last night. Probably won't have time to connect and test them for a little while. Also received a delivery from Roberto. My dimming module.. so I can hack my D-120s and a salinity module so i can automate salt mixing :) I need to start working on the code for all of this soon...
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