Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Basic / Standard Reef Angel hardware
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

So I am confused. I was cleaning the tank today and small cuts on my thumb started tingling. One by one I unplugged every device. The stray voltage still exists with JUST an analog dimming module and the head unit hooked up with a PH probe. The only thing in the water is a pH probe. If I put my finger in the water and dip in the pH probe I feel the tingling on my finger. I am 100% sure there is nothing else plugged in or in the water. The only thing I can think of is the head unit is putting out stray voltage.

Is this even possible? I took apart the head unit and looked for salt creep and couldn't find any, it looked spotless. Is there anything else I should be trying?
rimai
Posts: 12881
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by rimai »

Disconnect the dimming module. Does it change anything?
Roberto.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

I switched to a relay module that doesn't have analog dimming and I am getting the same thing.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

I disconnected everything and plugged in the module into another outlet with just the head unit and pH probe. I put the pH probe in a cup and stuck my finger in it. I could still feel stray voltage, also with a damp finger(where the cut is) I touched the BNC connector and could still feel a tingle. I verified I couldn't feel this on any other finger. Not sure what is going on here.
rimai
Posts: 12881
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by rimai »

So, you are saying that there is nothing connected to the relay box and nothing in the head unit besides the ph probe, right?
What happens if you plug it into a GFCI receptacle?
Roberto.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

You are correct. Nothing is plugged in to the head unit accept the pH probe. Nothing is plugged in to the relay box either. I have tested plugging it in to 2 GFCI outlets as well as in to a regular wall outlet. This didn't make a difference.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

So I have done some more testing. I had a "grounding" probe in the tank. I took this probe out and put it in a cup of water and got stray voltage off of it, obviously not properly grounded. Still though with just the head unit plugged in and 1 relay module I get stray voltage from the pH probe. Is it possible the grounding probe somehow effected the head unit to cause this problem?

EDIT: So I was getting this stray voltage from the grounding probe when it was plugged in to the same wall socket as the fish tank. If I moved to another wall it was ok. Also if I unplug the ReefAngel from the wall the grounding probe doesn't appear to give off stray voltage.
rimai
Posts: 12881
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by rimai »

So weird.
Could it be your ground is not really grounded?
Roberto.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

Well I took the head units, relay box, and pH probe to another room and hooked it up to a completely different outlet. I still received stray voltage when the pH probe was in a glass of water regardless of which relay box I used. I have no clue what is happening, this all started happening sometime between last Thursday and today...
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

So I brought a multimeter home from work to do some testing. First I tested for stray voltage on the ground wire in the wall outlet, the reading was 1-2 volts.

Next I moved the relay unit the head unit and the pH probe to another outlet, I stuck the pH probe in a glass of water and took a reading. The multimeter read 47 volts!!!! as soon as I took the probe out of the water it dropped to 1-2 volts. Next I put in a temp probe and got a reading of 25 volts, adding the pH probe did not compound the reading, just read 47 volts.

Next I hooked both relay modules up, the head unit, temp probe, float switches, basically everything that came with the Reef Angel. I did not connect any of my equipment. I took a reading and got 47 volts, even with the PH probe in the sump and the reading was taken from the display tank. I took the PH probe out and it dropped to 25 volts.

Lastly, out of curiosity, I plugged in and turned on all my equipment and the reading rose by 11 volts.

I'm really not sure what is going on but something is definitely wrong.
rimai
Posts: 12881
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by rimai »

Try this:
Get a 12VDC power supply and check the voltage you get from the GND in reference to your wall outlet Ground.
Roberto.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

I only had a 19.5VDC power supply. I tested that and it tested at 19.6V. I'm not too concerned with the voltage really it is more the current. The voltage doesn't have a path out of the tank until I stick my hand, or a grounding probe in it. This current goes away, or is at least reduced, when the ReefAngel is removed from the system.
rimai
Posts: 12881
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by rimai »

Do you have ph reading problems?
Roberto.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

So I have done A LOT of research regarding stray voltage and the aquarium. I have determined that all my devices put SOME current in to the water, the biggest culprits being ungrounded pumps like the power heads and the skimmer. The biggest culprit is still the Reef Angel, when it is turned on the voltage in the tank goes from 32v up to 47v which is a bigger jump than any other single device.

I tested this by plugging in all my equipment in to a power strip leaving the Reef Angel unplugged, the voltage was a steady 32v. As soon as I plugged in the Reef Angel(separate wall outlet) and hooked up the temp probes, pH probe and float switches the voltage went to 47v-50v.

As a test I put on my shoes and stuck my hand in the tank, no tingle on my fingers. I took my shoes off and I can feel the tingle on my fingers.

So everything I read says the tank has the potential to pass 50v of electricity to ground or through me. However current only flows when there is a grounding probe in the tank or I stick my hand in the water. If the tank isn't grounded it is much like a bird sitting on a power line.

So while it isn't ideal that the Reef Angel adds 15v of electricity to the tank it shouldn't be a problem for the inhabitants.
rimai
Posts: 12881
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by rimai »

Does the pH reading change when you place the grounding probe in the tank?
Roberto.
Gugs Jr
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:49 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by Gugs Jr »

I'm following along since I'm having the same issues. I've lost a few fish to ich and it only happened after installing my RA and noticing the stray voltage.

I'm thinking the stray voltage is enough to cause the ich to appear. Since I've had most of the fish I've lost for over 2 years.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

When I put the grounding probe in the tank the pH reading doesn't seem to be effected.
rimai
Posts: 12881
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by rimai »

That's so weird. When people have stray voltage problems, the pH probe gets wacky readings.
What do you get if you measure your Neutral and Ground in the wall outlet?
Roberto.
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

When I checked the ground wire I did get a reading of 1v. The multimeter read 1 just in open air so not sure if that has to do with humidity or not. I have not checked the neutral wire, I won't be able to do that until Sunday.

One thing I noticed is that when I have everything plugged in and turned off I get a reading of 8-11v. If I flip the breaker .8v. I went through and unplugged everything from all the outlets and flipped the breaker on and the reading went to 8v-11v. So something may be a bit goofy in my apartments wiring. Still boggles my mind why sticking a pH probe in an glass of water by itself puts out 47v.
Gugs Jr
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:49 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by Gugs Jr »

rimai wrote:That's so weird. When people have stray voltage problems, the pH probe gets wacky readings.
What do you get if you measure your Neutral and Ground in the wall outlet?
My pH readings are fine and Im still having this issue. Same as meadows even when everything is unplugged.

Im in an apartment as well. I know where my tank is plugged in is hooked up to outlets in the kitchen.
Gugs Jr
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:49 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by Gugs Jr »

Anyone have any luck figuring this out?
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

Gugs Jr,

My tank is also plugged in to the same circuit as one of the kitchen outlets. However it isn't the same as the appliances.

I just ignored it for now... Everything I read said it isn't to much of an issue unless you ground the tank, then the voltage has somewhere to go. Wasn't exactly the answer I was looking for but I can't do a whole lot to the wiring in my apartment either.
Gugs Jr
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:49 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by Gugs Jr »

meadowsad wrote:Gugs Jr,

My tank is also plugged in to the same circuit as one of the kitchen outlets. However it isn't the same as the appliances.

I just ignored it for now... Everything I read said it isn't to much of an issue unless you ground the tank, then the voltage has somewhere to go. Wasn't exactly the answer I was looking for but I can't do a whole lot to the wiring in my apartment either.

Right now I just have my pH probe unplugged which is a waste. Since everything else works with the reef angel.

I was wondering if a different power strip would work.
Damion
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:46 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by Damion »

Is there an RA Stray voltage probe?

If not here's an example...

http://puratek.com/products/insight-mon ... tage-probe
wolffman64
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:38 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by wolffman64 »

Hi,
Do you live outside the US, and are using the plug adapters for the relay unit?
ahmedess
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by ahmedess »

for those who are experiencing stray voltage problem,

Do you have Meanwell dimmable LED drivers? and do you have them connected to the relay box (power and dimming signal cables) during testing for stray voltage ?

i'm experiencing the same issue and i have found out that somehow through the pwm signal cables running from the drivers to the relay box there is a current that runs from the drivers to the reefangel controller then to the tank through the pH probe.

the way I have figured this out is using a multimeter. I disconnected everything from the tank and started by plugging each item on its own and testing the potential difference between the tank and the ground.

it turns out that when the drivers are ON the potential difference between the tank and ground increases by around 50 VAC and the only connection between the drivers and the tank is through the pH probe. remove the probe and the 50 VAC goes away, turn off the drivers and the 50 VAC goes away so my conclusion is that there's a current that flows from the drivers through the Reefangel to the probe and into the tank.

Is there any possible way to block the current from flowing from the drivers to the RA?
meadowsad
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by meadowsad »

During my testing I took the RA head unit and a relay box to another outlet away from the fish tank. Turned it on and hooked ONLY the PH probe to the head unit and put it in a glass of water. I then used a multimeter to test the voltage and it read 47v.
SlimyEel
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by SlimyEel »

I know this is a little over a month old, but were you able to come up with a solution?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Themaddhatter
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:35 pm
Location: Guelph, Ontario

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by Themaddhatter »

Hi there, I just hooked up my reef angel plus last night and immediately noticed a strong tingling when my hand was in the sump. All other equipment has been running for months w/o issue. I'll try detaching the pH probe tonight and check with a multimeter. Anyone find a solution for this yet?
DmnYnkee
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:45 am
Location: Clermont, Florida

Re: Stray Voltage - Nothing Plugged In except pH probe.

Post by DmnYnkee »

I am having the same issue. 40v-42v in my tank. I unplug the bnc on the Ph probe, and it drops to 26v in tank. Ph probe by itself in a cup of tank water measures 46v. Temp probe in cup of water measures 9.6v, but has no effect on readings from tank in, or out of the water.

Turning off pumps, lights, heaters, unplugging floats, and temp sensors resulted in very minimal change (less than 4v).

When I disconnect the bus connector from the RA head unit, the volts drop to ~10v.

Now, when the ground probe is plugged in, tank voltage drops to .006v, but Ph drops by about .05.

This leaves me with several questions. First, is my Ph probe bad (have new one on the way, and will test to answer this), second, do I leave the ground probe in my system, or is it going to do more harm than good by allowing the current to flow? Third, has anyone moved their head unit, relay box, etc away from the tank by a few feet, and had it make any difference on stray voltage in their tanks?

I am perplexed.
Image
Post Reply