Analog signal for LED drivers

[jonegross]

I have been running my inventronics/TRC driver for about 2 weeks without an RC. It seems to be working fine, to preface this my electronics skills are on the level were I am able to break most things (:.... I need another driver to split the white and blue channels, but am waiting to see if this unit holds up. I would much rather just buy one more of the same type driver, as it will make my project box simple. But really it isn't much price difference from just buying 2 meanwell pwm 30 watt drivers. Not sure what to do at this point. Is it possible for the RA controller to be damaged by running a 0-10v driver without an RC? Doesn't seem like it to me. My thought was the lights would flicker from the pwm, but I can't see any flickering. Maybe burn out the dimming circuit? Any word from the manufacture?

[rimai]

No response from the manufacturer.
The RA would not get damaged by your drivers.

[jonegross]

Thought I would post a quick update: It's been over a month with my Inventronics driver plugged directly into the pwm port, no issues as of yet. The more I look at designs of dimming circuits for these things, I don't think it is possible for them to distinguish between PWM and 0-10 analogue as every design I have seen a layout for has a cap in the dimming circuit running in parallel with the main circuit. Seems to me that would just filter out the pwm anyway... But what do I know, will update in a month or if the driver dies.

[08trdoffroad]

So bottom line, will the 48D's work with the new PWM to analog cables?

[rimai]

Yes.

[08trdoffroad]

Will they work correctly? Or will there be choppy dimming, etc?

[binder]

Will they work correctly? Or will there be choppy dimming, etc?

You most likely won't be able to dim 0-100%. There may be a drop off less than 10%. I have a 24D driver and it drops off at 6% for me (or maybe 7%, I forget). Other than that, it's a smooth slope from the min to 100% for me and back down.

[08trdoffroad]

Thanks for the reply binder! Just the information I was looking for! I am not worried if they drop off at 6%, even on a potentiometer they will only dim down to 5% before cut off.

[stevenhman]

Great information!

[TanksNStuff]

New RA owner here, trying to hook up 2 LED fixtures with a total of 4 Meanwell ELN-60-48D drivers (2 drivers per fixture, 1 for whites, 1 for blues). This is going to be long, so please bare with me.

I got a PWM expansion module, but have not hooked it up yet. I did all my testing using the 2 PWM channels that come with the main relay box. I also received a pair of PWM-to-Analog Lead wires with my controller. Once I get the PWM expansion module configured, I'll try to test again with that to see if I get different results than I did with the 2 stock channels.

First thing I did was test my lights using a 9v battery as a "dimming signal". The battery was at 9.4V as per my multimeter. All lights were very bright and I tested whites and blues for each fixture.

Next, using the Demo code on the controller, I went into PWM settings and made 1 channel 100%, the other channel 50%. Then, to verify the signal strength, I took multimeter readings right at the pins on the relay box. The 100% = 9.77V, the 50%= 4.94V.

Next step, I connected the PWM-to-Analog leads to the pins and took a reading on the open wire ends. The 100% = 3.17V, 50% = 1.86V. That's a pretty big dropoff between the pins and the other end of the converter! It seems it lost about 68% voltage on the 100% channel, and about 62% voltage on the 50% channel.

*LED FIXTURE INFO* - Dimming control is via an ethernet port on the fixture. I had to use a CAT5 patch cable to plug into the port, then cut/strip the other end to get bare wires. This is how I tested with the battery and verified the +/- wires for each channel.

Next step, I connected one driver's dimming wires to each converter. Lights worked for both channels, however, they appeared much dimmer than when I tested with the battery, even the 100% channel.

I then removed the ethernet plugs from the fixture ports, and tested the voltage at those pins. Voltage readings were the same as what I got at the end of the converter... so the patch cables were good.

Next test was to determine when the lights would shut off. I ramped the controllers PWM signals down in increments of 5 and then pinpointed the actual shutoff value was 21% intensity. At 22%, lights were all fine, at 21%, each channel (blue or white) shutoff. So a single ELN-60-48D driver on a single channel cutoff at 21% intensity when using the converter.

Next, I combined both drivers onto 1 channel. I twisted both blues and whites onto 1 converter. The results were basically identical... shutting off both at 21% intensity.

Next, I brought out fixture #2 and made another patch cable. I jumped right into adding all 4 drivers (2 from each fixture) onto 1 converter. This time, the results got worse. I started at 50% (thinking I'd work my way down) but none of the lights even came on. So I jumped up to 75% and worked down to 59%, where the blues went out on 1 fixture. At 58%, all lights shut off.

The last test was sort of irrelevant since I plan to only have 1 driver per channel... but I did it for the data and to satisfy my curiosity anyway.

So, being upset that I wasn't going to be able to utilize my new LEDs to the fullest extent, I remembered reading this thread and decided to see if my lights would work with a straight PWM signal, instead of using the converter.

I dug out my old box of computer parts and found a fan that had a 2-pin connector. (See, I knew I was going to need that someday!) I cut the wires off of it and I now had my lead wires without a PWM-to-Analog converter. Just a black and red wire.

OK, first test was setting the controller back to 100% channel and 50% channel. Took readings at the pins and got the same results as first time. 9.77V and 4.94V respectively.

Then I connected to the 100% pins and got 9.74V at the bare wires. Very minor dropoff, but I can live with that. I moved the connector to the 50% and got 4.91V at the bare wires. Again, acceptable IMO.

Next step, I wired 1 set of wires from the patch cable to these wires. I took readings at the ethernet jack pins and got the same as at the wired connection. Just double-checking that everything is still good.

Now, I was a bit scared of damaging either the fixture or the controller, so I did this set of test starting with 0% intensity and worked my way up to find out when the lights would turn on.

With a single driver on a single channel, lights came on at 10% intensity (PWM signal set on controller).

Seeing that was an improvement, I then added the other driver to the same channel. Again, starting at 0%, both whites and blues came on at 10% intensity. Voltage readings at the twisted wires was almost identical, maybe a few points lower.

After that, I got brave and added all 4 drivers to the same channel. Guess what, 10% was still the turnon point for all 4 drivers!

Next, I kept all 4 on the same channel, and ramped them up in 5% increments. I could barely notice the brightness increasing with each step with my eye, so can't comment on the scaling aspect. But, all lights ran continuously, no flickering or anything. And, at 100%, they were way brighter than when I had the in-line converter wired in. In fact, at around 50% they looked brighter to me than 100% with the converter!

I got all the way to 100% with 4 drivers, 1 PWM channel, and then took a reading at the wired connection to the new (non-converted) lead wires. I got 9.68V @ 100% intensity. A slightly higher dropoff than with a single driver one a single channel, but certainly one that most people could live with.

So, seeing that these seem to operate perfectly fine, my only other worry is whether the PWM signal will damage the driver. I put the lights away and didn't run them this way any longer. Roberto says he talked to people at Meanwell and it won't hurt the drivers to do this, so that's a glimmer of hope.

But, the main reason I posted this was to give data showing the PWM-to-Analog lead wires are not working as intended (or at least not to my expectations.) They do allow an analog driver to work, but at a very minimum capacity compared to their optimum performance.

I think my 3 x 3w moonlights, running on a constant current 1x3w driver was brighter than the 33 x 3W royal blue / UV mix running at around 2W each actinics.

Roberto, I'm the one that linked you this post in an email this morning. (Well, I'm about to do that right after I hit submit. Do you think you can take a look at the converters and test the voltage on the wires to verify my findings? Maybe the wrong resistor/capacitors were used to make these converters?

[TanksNStuff]

Just a quick update on my previous post. Roberto has been testing a mod he came up with for the relay box (and pwm expansion module) to change the signal type from PWM to analog. He says this is a permanent change and I'll never be able to get a PWM signal from them again. However, given that my LED drivers are all analog anyway, I was willing to take that risk.

Sending mine back to him for mods and I'll report my results when I get them back. Should be a week or two til I get them, so don't worry if it looks like I forgot... I won't!

[TanksNStuff]

Well, Roberto sent me an email stating that I didn't need to return it. Luckily I saw the email before the UPS guy picked it up.

I'm waiting for further instructions so sorry to hog up the thread with misleading info. I guess just ignore the last post or two until I hear back from him.

[miked]

Well, Roberto sent me an email stating that I didn't need to return it. Luckily I saw the email before the UPS guy picked it up.

I'm waiting for further instructions so sorry to hog up the thread with misleading info. I guess just ignore the last post or two until I hear back from him.

Any word on a solution.

[rimai]

The PWM-to Analog lead wire works on D type meanwell as others have used them, but for some reason it wasn't working with the Apollo fixtures.
I came up with a work around until my next batch of relay boxes come in.
Two versions of relay boxes will be offered now: One with Analog and one with PWM output signal.
This way, anyone can choose which signal they want to have and will be compatible with all analog signal drivers.

[TanksNStuff]

Well, Roberto sent me an email stating that I didn't need to return it. Luckily I saw the email before the UPS guy picked it up.

I'm waiting for further instructions so sorry to hog up the thread with misleading info. I guess just ignore the last post or two until I hear back from him.

Any word on a solution.

Yes, aside from what Roberto posted for future cases... he agreed to modify one of his PWM expansion modules to use analog signals instead, and will ship that to me for testing on my Apollo fixtures. When all is working, he wants me to ship back my original PWM module.

Roberto has been extremely helpful in figuring out a solution for this, and communication has been awesome along the way. Just wanted to add that to the info here.

I'll definitely post back once I get everything working.

[Mike S]

Hi Roberto,

I received the modified relay box today. Thanks for getting it out so quickly. I've taken a stab at the code for the expansion relay. Relays 1 and 2 on the expansion box are my blue lights, 3 and 4 are my white lights, and 5 and 6 are my moon lights. I'm going to set the time and slope for the blue and white leds with the android app. The moonlights aren't dimmable so I just want to put them on for a short time at the end of the day. Does this code look correct?

Code: Select all

 // Ports that are always on
    ReefAngel.Relay.On(Port1);
    ReefAngel.Relay.On(Port3);
    ReefAngel.Relay.On(Port4);
    ReefAngel.Relay.On(Port7);
    ReefAngel.Relay.On(Box1_Port7);
    ReefAngel.Relay.On(Box1_Port8);
 }

void loop()
{
    // Specific functions
    ReefAngel.StandardHeater(Port2);
    
    ReefAngel.StandardLights(Port5); //Fuge light set to come on when DT lights are off
    if (bitRead(ReefAngel.Relay.RelayData,2)) ReefAngel.Relay.Off(Port5); else ReefAngel.Relay.On(Port5); 
    
    ReefAngel.SingleATOLow(Port6);
    if (ReefAngel.HighATO.IsActive()) ReefAngel.Relay.Off(Port6);
    
    ReefAngel.StandardLights(Box1_Port1); //Blue LEDs Right
    ReefAngel.StandardLights(Box1_Port2); //Blue LEDs Left    
    ReefAngel.StandardLights(Box1_Port3); //White LEDs Right
    ReefAngel.StandardLights(Box1_Port4); //White LEDs Left    
    ReefAngel.PWM.SetActinic(PWMSlope(InternalMemory.StdLightsOnHour_read(),InternalMemory.StdLightsOnMinute_read(),InternalMemory.StdLightsOffHour_read(),InternalMemory.StdLightsOffMinute_read(),InternalMemory.PWMSlopeStartA_read(),InternalMemory.PWMSlopeEndA_read(),InternalMemory.PWMSlopeDurationA_read(),ReefAngel.PWM.GetActinicValue()));    ReefAngel.PWM.SetDaylight(PWMSlope(InternalMemory.StdLightsOnHour_read(),InternalMemory.StdLightsOnMinute_read(),InternalMemory.StdLightsOffHour_read(),InternalMemory.StdLightsOffMinute_read(),InternalMemory.PWMSlopeStartD_read(),InternalMemory.PWMSlopeEndD_read(),InternalMemory.PWMSlopeDurationD_read(),ReefAngel.PWM.GetDaylightValue()));

    ReefAngel.StandardLights(Box1_Port5,21,30,22,30); //moonlight right on from 2130 to 2230
    ReefAngel.StandardLights(Box1_Port6,21,30,22,30); //moonlight left on from 2130 to 2230
   

I still have to work out the web banner and menus but am trying to get the basic functions down first. Thanks again for the help.

[rimai]

Looks good.

[TanksNStuff]

Thanks Mike. I'll be borrowing most of that too.

[Mike S]

You may want to hold off George. I didn't realize that the new libraries are out. I'm going to install them tonight along with the new version of ragen and see if there are other options.

[binder]

You may want to hold off George. I didn't realize that the new libraries are out. I'm going to install them tonight along with the new version of ragen and see if there are other options.

The PWMSlope function is shortened for you. We do the same thing that you are doing with those lines except it's just in an easier-to-read function. RAGen will add that for you if you want.

This line could be shortened inside the code:

Code: Select all

 if (bitRead(ReefAngel.Relay.RelayData,2)) ReefAngel.Relay.Off(Port5); else ReefAngel.Relay.On(Port5); 

and could be written as this:

Code: Select all

ReefAngel.Relay.Set(Port5, bitRead(ReefAngel.Relay.RelayData,2));

It functions exactly the same but it's a little simpler to type.

Note: You don't have to change any of the things I mentioned. I was just pointing them out as a reference.

The Web Banner is phased out. You use Portal(username) instead. Then you just put your labels inside the Portal on the Portal section of this site. Much simpler to use now.

Menus are still the same. I've almost got an update to make creating a menu simpler but haven't finished it yet. Just to give you a little "teaser" for the menu tab. It's not completed. I've still gotta add a few things and put in some of the standard functions for you to choose from to use, but here's a sneak peak.

Custom Menu tab

Custom_Menu.png (16.81 KiB) Viewed 6683 times

Not sure when this will be released, but that's what is being worked on.

[TanksNStuff]

As always, great stuff Curt!

[Mike S]

I've been using the new version of RAGen and its pretty slick. Couple of newbie questions:

Code: Select all

ReefAngel.Relay.Set(Port5, bitRead(ReefAngel.Relay.RelayData,2)); //Turn fuge light on when main lights are off

If this is going to turn my fuge light on when my main lights are off and my main lights are plugged into ports 1, 2, 3, and 4 on the 2nd relay do I replace the "2" with a "Box1_Port1" at the end of that code?

I have a relay with the normal PWM ports and a 2nd relay that was modified to send analog signals through the old PWM ports for my LED drivers. Does the PWM slope function just send signals through both or do I have to direct it somehow to send it to the 2nd relay with the analog outputs?

Code: Select all

 ReefAngel.PWM.ActinicPWMSlope();
    ReefAngel.PWM.DaylightPWMSlope(); 

Is this really it to the new PWM slope code or do I need to call out the parameters within the () like the old code?

Thanks again for the help.

[rimai]

I created a new function to make it easier
Try using:

Code: Select all

ReefAngel.MoonLights(Box1_Port1);

The signal will only work on the main relay box. The ports on the expansion box gets disabled.
So, what you want to do is make sure to use the analog box as your main box.
Yeah, that's all you need for new PWM slope.
You can set all the parameters with internal memory and off you go
At the moment, only Android can do it, but we can bug John to get him to update iPhone too

[Mike S]

Thanks Roberto,

If I'm going to run my normal moonlights off of two of the ports do I need to have this in my loop

Code: Select all

ReefAngel.StandardLights(Port5); //Right Moonlights
ReefAngel.StandardLights(Port6); //Left Moonlights

along with this

Code: Select all

ReefAngel.MoonLights(Port5); //Right Moonlight
ReefAngel.MoonLights(Port6); //Left Moonlight

I'm guessing no and the moonlight function takes care of this.

[rimai]

Use the second.
The first is for your main lights schedule.
The 2nd will just take the same schedule and use it in reverse cycle.

[TanksNStuff]

I created a new function to make it easier
Try using:

Code: Select all

ReefAngel.MoonLights(Box1_Port1);

The signal will only work on the main relay box. The ports on the expansion box gets disabled.
So, what you want to do is make sure to use the analog box as your main box.
Yeah, that's all you need for new PWM slope.
You can set all the parameters with internal memory and off you go
At the moment, only Android can do it, but we can bug John to get him to update iPhone too

I might be getting ahead of myself since you didn't get to finish it yet, but can I utilize this stuff when I use the modified PWM module (for analog) that you'll be sending me to control my blues/whites channels?

My plan is to have all of my LED power plugs controlled by my expansion relay box (ports 1-2 will be blues, 3-4 are whites, 5-6 are moonlights.) The moonlights are NOT dimmable (on/off only, based on power to the outlet port). The blues/whites outlet ports will get controlled by the standard lights? And the dimming of them controlled by the PWM slope memory values (which I'll be able to adjust via the android app)?

So, given that info above, my code would have these (?):
ReefAngel.MoonLights(Box1_Port5);
ReefAngel.MoonLights(Box1_Port6);

I guess what I'm asking is, what are the parameters for the ReefAngel.MoonLights function? And will it work if I use them on the expansion relay box instead of the main relay? I'm just not sure if that moonlights function is controlling power or if it's controlling dimming/intensity.

Also, if that won't work on the expansion box, would it work if I used that entire box as main box instead of expansion?

Sorry for all the questions... but this is the sort of stuff I'm not grasping entirely yet.

[rimai]

Yeap. It works just like you typed

[TanksNStuff]

You mean I really am learning something?

[rimai]

Good job!!!