HELP! What do I need to pull this off?

[00Warpig00]

Seriously interested in the Reef Angel+ and probably a bunch of accessories but have no clue what I need to pull this off or even if I CAN pull it off with the RA+. Not at all worried about the coding aspect of things. More worried about the hardware aspect. What I will need, and how I will hook it all up to meet my desires.

Here is an image of my physical layout of my fish room and my man cave.

http://warpig.dyndns-web.com/tank/Layout.jpg

Here is what I want to accomplish.

I would like to put the Reef Angel + in my man cave by my computer.
pro's/con's of this placement?

at a minimum I would like to...

20Gal QT:
turn on/off T5 on timer via AC outlet
monitor water temp.
control heater

29Gal QT:
turn on/off T5 on timer via AC outlet
monitor water temp.
control heater

180Gal DT:
sunrise/sunset LED's Whites/Royal Blues 4 Drivers (2 per color) (I understand LED Drivers (pwm) will determine sunrise/sunset effectiveness
Would like to leave royal blue's on as moonlight at lowest setting of LED Driver (I realize driver (pwm) must dim low enough to provide acceptable moonlighting)
monitor water temp.
control heater
control fans (pwm or AC clip on for sump???)
turn on/off skimmer
turn on/off Maxijet supply to GFO/Carbon reactors
auto top off monitoring float switches
auto water change (turn off/on reactor/skimmer/water change pump/return pump while monitoring sump high water\low water) Thinking I will need 4 float switches in sump (sump near empty/sump near full, low water ATO on/normal water level ATO off)
low water float to keep ATO/Water change supply pumps off in case Brute is empty.
Salinity in DT?
Somehow monitor power loss?
Wi-fi! for remote monitoring\Notifications etc.

I'm sure there is more. My biggest concern is that it seems the Reef Angel hardware may not be distance friendly. I will have a 18-20 foot run for many wires\sensors? is there such a thing as an equivalent to an "RKE aqua bus" type setup or simulate something like this somehow? Even if just running multiple sensors/wires via cat5 cables. Like to have my controller as close to my computer as possible but my tank with the most need for control is 18 feet away from the computer area.

Any guidance anyone can provide or ideas would be great. I have a vision of what I want in my mind but am not sure of the limitations of RA+ in the hardware dept. I am a hardware geek but have not hands on yet with arduino.

Nick

[rimai]

May I ask why you would like to keep the head unit by the computer?

[00Warpig00]

I was thinking from a navigating the menu's with the joystick and selecting options standpoint as well as from the standpoint of not having to disconnect everything and drag it over to the computer to plug it into the PC to upload code changes etc. Kinda thinking along the lines of having the unit where I spend the most time and not having to disconnect and move it if I want to tweak it.

Is there a remote (virtual) app where I can control all of it's menus and upload and test code from my computer and still have the controller 20 ft away?

Nick

[00Warpig00]

Not to mention the quick glance at it's built in screen for info without having to open a web browser and log into a website. often times I do other things with my computer and just want a quick glance...

Just thinking out loud.

[rimai]

The communication cable is a vga cable, which can be found on 25feet.
You could extend the head unit to close to your computer with that.
The problem is going to be the temperature sensors.
You will need a resistor to help with the signal travel the long distance.
But you said you are hardware geek, so I'm sure you can get this done easily.
The pH will need to be tested. I never extended it that far.

[00Warpig00]

Have also been considering the RKE and love the "aqua bus" idea of putting modules wherever I need/want them. One powerbar by the big tank, one by the QT tanks. The head unit/display where I sit for much of the evening. If I could somehow do something similar with RA+ it would probably seal the deal for me. I have already filled my shopping kart on your store at least three times but still cant seem to figure out what I would need. having a hard time visualizing how to apply your product to my needs\desires. I'm a hardware\gadget guy. Are there hardware\install\wiring manuals\help for RA+ I missed. I see LOTS about coding which is great. So much I feel totally comfortable with that aspect of the RA+ but I'm having trouble finding info on how to hook stuff up You know. How does it tick...

Nick

[rimai]

All the expansion modules connect to an expansion hub.
The expansion hub is connected to the main relay box.
Look at one of the expansion module manual. It has a simple diagram.
You can extend each module from the expansion hub at a certain extent. They all use USB cables and a good quality shielded USB cable should be able to get you 20 feet.

[00Warpig00]

Was already thinking along the lines of the extra power relay box and longer cables. Would need to loose the VGA cable though it's really tough to run HD15 connectors through walls. Much easier for cat3/5/6 or even cut one end off the VGA cables and use breakouts. Ugly but functional. See my head has been spinning.. was trying to think of ideas for all the different sensors too believe me. I assume temp sensors are just a variable resistance based on temp? PH Probe Runs through coax? What type of coax? RG6/RG8X/RG59U 50 Ohm/75Ohm etc. I am also a Amateur radio operator for one of my other hobbies so terminating coax cables doesn't bother me either... kinda scared to spend the kinda cash I had for the items I think I will need stacked up in my shopping cart and then realize later stuff cant happen... Just trying to take it all in. Love what I have seen so far and read about the RA/RA+ LOVE the concept. Would like to support it.

Nick

[00Warpig00]

If you look at my diagram and my original post and understand generally what I am trying to accomplish and lets just say that I would be willing to move the controller/other items to wherever it made the most sense and made things easier can you give me an idea of how you would approach my install? I am trying to keep my hookup as simple as possible too as it will help prevent intermittent issues and other possible problems. Just having a bit of trouble because I dont have any hands on with the hardware. maybe your intimate knowledge of the device can help me get a better understanding.

thanks

Nick

ps. I will be looking at the expansion module manual in a few minutes

[rimai]

Layout.jpg (49.67 KiB) Viewed 7190 times

I'd do something like this.
You can run the temp sensor through the cat 5.
The shorter USB cable is used to connect the hub to the relay expansion.
The longer USB cable is used to connect the computer to RA.

[00Warpig00]

Thanks for taking the time to mark up my diagram and give me your input. I'm going to chew on that a little bit. I'm sure i will come back with another slew of questions shortly. Looked at the manuals and have re read a few of them and have a little better understanding of the hookups.

Nick

[00Warpig00]

So here is what I have been working on for the past several days. I did this to visualize what my end goal is, as well as how I would attempt to set this all up. I'm not sure my understanding of everything is correct and I have it all correct, but based on what I have read and any feedback you can give me I'm sure this will provoke the next questions I may have. If it's not too much trouble can you help me pick this apart to help me understand better.



Looks like I'm looking at quite an investment in Reef Angel hardware. Do you have any kind of large purchase discounts? I'm at ~$700 and I haven't found the salinity module\probe or IO Modules on your store to add to my cart yet I'm sure you can understand my concern with placing an order this size. I'd hate to make this investment and find out that it falls short of my goals based on my purchasing without fully understanding the products.

Again thanks for your help and feedback.

Nick

[rimai]

Hi Nick,

Wow. Pretty cool drawing
Your diagram is dead on.
There is not one thing to be changed
The Salinity and I/O will be added to the store in a couple weeks when they become available.
Rest assured that I'm not just going to sell the equipment and leave you out in the wind.
I stand behind the product and I'm here to help at anytime you have any questions or help with your system.

[jpalmer]

Hi Nick,

I love the amount of planning you've given your project.

If you wouldn't mind some constructive feedback..

I would suggest using the primary relay box for all "critical to sustaining life" components. for example, a heater, and powerheads. The reason is, you can put one of the relay boxes on a battery backup (UPS) In the event of a power outage, you can disable all hardware that isn't absolutely essential (return pump, skimmer, multiple heaters, lighting, etc) to conserve battery power for a longer outage duration.

In another thread, one of the members has come up with a way to determine when the secondary relay box has lost power, and disable all non-essential ports as appropriate. According to that thread, that functionality will be getting added to the base libraries.

Of course, with the level of planning you've obviously invested, you may already have considered power outages and have batteries and generators already. If that is the case, please disregard my post!

[rimai]

According to that thread, that functionality will be getting added to the base libraries.

It's on dev branch already with bumped up version and everything, just waiting to be tested to make sure there is no problems. I'll go over some tests during the weekend.

[00Warpig00]

Hi Nick,

Rest assured that I'm not just going to sell the equipment and leave you out in the wind.
I stand behind the product and I'm here to help at anytime you have any questions or help with your system.

Not concerned about that at all. I'd be more worried about you getting hit by a bus I think. I do not question your dedication to this project or supporting it one bit. I have read enough here and in other places like reefcentral that I am comfortable or I wouldn't even consider making a purchase this large.

I question my ability to fully understand a product and how I can make the most of my investment and make that money work in my favor as opposed to becoming a pile of electronics I paid allot of money for but cant use because I misunderstood the functionality. As I mentioned before, I'm a hardware/gadget guy. I need to know how things tick to feel all fuzzy inside. I'm getting there with RA+ just wish I had a cleaner method to control tanks in two different rooms Speaking of that... with what I am looking to do it surely looks like the better option is to keep MOST RA hardware close to my Display. I have to go over my diagram and figure out exactly what needs to hit my "Man Cave". I'm thinking along the lines of your marked up diagram covering it all. The temp probes appear to be 3 wire I'm assuming a balanced twisted pair and a sheild. not sure how that will work over cat5 and keeping wiring to a minimum I'd like to try to max out my strand capacity inside the cat 5 wire. I also have some concern with the "USB" cable that will go from the expansion hub to the expansion relay box. not sure how you are using the USB cable internally. The USB standard has one power/ground pair and one balanced pair of serial wires within. I assume the I2C uses the serial pair. I dont have experience with I2C (have allot with RS232/RS485) so I'm not sure about serial data cable quality issues over a distance with I2C. Again I need to run these through a wall so I will want to cut at least one end off and connect to breakouts to help ease the pain of running wires through my place. Also considering two separate RA systems but I would want the Wi-Fi ability for both and then right off the bat 2x RA + 2x Wifi is gonna run $800+ and then the extras. So it still looks like it would be less costly to do one system. besides my QT tanks will be used less often when I am finished with my stocking list (which should be by winter time).

Hi Nick,

I love the amount of planning you've given your project.

If you wouldn't mind some constructive feedback..

I would suggest using the primary relay box for all "critical to sustaining life" components. for example, a heater, and powerheads. The reason is, you can put one of the relay boxes on a battery backup (UPS) In the event of a power outage, you can disable all hardware that isn't absolutely essential (return pump, skimmer, multiple heaters, lighting, etc) to conserve battery power for a longer outage duration.

In another thread, one of the members has come up with a way to determine when the secondary relay box has lost power, and disable all non-essential ports as appropriate. According to that thread, that functionality will be getting added to the base libraries.

Of course, with the level of planning you've obviously invested, you may already have considered power outages and have batteries and generators already. If that is the case, please disregard my post!

Love the constructive feedback. Thanks! I have considered power failure to a point, but honestly I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around everything at one time. What can RA Hardware do? How do I solve my Logistical issues of three tanks in two separate rooms on one controller and yet run cables with large ends on them through my walls and still keep lengths down and the system functional. Life supporting systems on the primary relay box etc. it's allot to try to swallow at once. lol. I would LOVE to have RA be able to detect power loss and act accordingly. Was considering an APC SmartUPS but a sizeable UPS is another $500+ investment. Where does the bleeding stop... lol Also considering a DEEP CELL battery and a power inverter... also considering a generator... I think the least expensive power backup route might be a cheap battery charger a deep cell and a good power inverter. I'd like to get an idea of how long I can run certain pumps on those without power. My goal would be to keep 2 Koralia EVO 1050's and 200Watts of heat running for 24 hours in the display tank at a minimum. My DT doesnt even have a heater installed right now as my place runs warm naturally. All my power is under ground. I rarely have power outages and if i do they are 90% likely to last less than 4 hours. I have lived here 15 years and had one power outage of almost 24 hours and my second longest in 15 years has been 3 or 4 hours. So much to consider. lol

Nick

[00Warpig00]

Hey Roberto... On the IO Module... are the channels a simple pull up that a switch (float switch for example) pulls to ground and the hardware detects the pull down? It seems if this is the case it would be pretty simple to detect power loss through the IO module... No?

Nick

[rimai]

Yes, pull up with the switch closing and pulling down.
You can get any simple normally open relay powered by any standard power supply to close the circuit to detect power loss.
When power is out, the relay opens.
Or the other alternative and run it as pull down and use a power supply to feed 5VDC to detect power loss.
When power is out, the voltage drops to 0VDC.
Either/or would work. The 2nd option has to be a regulated power supply as the I/O pins do not have opto-isolation. 1st option is the safest.

[rimai]

The expansion hub uses a buffer chip which should buffer the I2C over USB cable for your QT tank.
Just get a good quality shielded cable to minimize interference.
The temp probe can be extended pretty far. I've done 25 feet with no problem. All you need is a 10K pull up resistor at the end of the cable to null out the capacitance the long run cable creates.

[rimai]

If you are really concerned on the I2C, you can leave the relat expansion module on the display side and use CAT5 with break out to split the svga cable.
You would need 2 runs of CAT5. You would use 8 wires for your relay signals on one cable and the other cable would run GND, VCC, DATA for your temp probe. You can shared the same DATA wire for both temp probes.
At minimum you need 11 wires to do that.

[00Warpig00]

Roberto,

Given my diagram. I am under the impression The RA+/PWM version is the model I would require. Is their any advantages/disadvantages to spending the extra $20 on the RA+/Analog? If I am planning an external PWM module would the PWM ports on the RA+/PWM be disabled? How about the analog ports on the RA+/Analog?

Nick

[rimai]

No, they would still be enabled for you to use.
Either analog or PWM.
The advantage of analog is only that you could possibly use them for Tunze pumps if you ever have the need.

[00Warpig00]

In that same spirit I notice now your products page lists a PWM dimming module or an analog dimming module for a $20 difference. Does the analog do pwm also or only analog. Curious if I could use the analog version to provide PWM for my LED drivers and use extra unused ports to possibly control some small 5V relay's for doing some low voltage switching via relays or drive other low voltage analog devices fans etc...

Nick

[rimai]

I could custom make it so you can choose any combination.
You have 6 channels. Pick and choose what you would like and I can make it work.
Simply purchase the analog version and let me know what you would like. No additional charge
Just keep in mind that the module can only output 40mA max in each channel.

[00Warpig00]

So Lets say I take you up on your offer and purchase an analog version and have you modify for 3 of the 6 ports 0-10V pwm and 3 of the 6 ports 0-10V Analog I could in theory drive a reed switch relay like this one http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/756887 ... 51-30.html to do some other "dirty work" that needs low voltage switching? Obviously I would need my code to reflect a 5V output on the analog lines as opposed to the full 10V.

Nick

[rimai]

yes, you could use the analog output at 50% and control those relays
The datasheet says the coil is 25mA, so you should be good with one per channel.

[00Warpig00]

Thanks... Now I'm having visions of circuit board etching dancing in my head. lol

So I still don't see the I/O module or the Salinity module on the store. What are the pricing of these?
I'm trying to get an idea of how much of my paycheck I'm gonna have to sign over to you
I've got everything I need from my diagram in my cart except those. Also would a salinity probe be included with the salinity module? need to figure that cost in too if not.

Thanks,

Nick

[rimai]

Yes, they will be there next week when they come in.
The Salinity module comes with probe and it will go for $149.
The I/O module will be $89.